Post by Dominique on May 11, 2007 19:05:15 GMT -5
a post by Lizzie
Hi!
In the gallery there is a picture (419) and it says it is of Queen Marie of Naples but I have seen in a book that it is Sissi. Is it a mistake??
reply by stu.
It's Queen Marie, I assure you. Books are written by men, men make mistakes.
reply by sissiwebnet
Hello Lizzie,
Yes, it really is a picture of Queen Marie Sophie. If you look closely, you see she has a large ribbon dropping from her shoulder. You can also see the same ribbon on picture 438 (which I just added to the Gallery), also a picture of Marie. The white and blue ribbon is something that we very often see in official paintings and photographs of Marie when she was Queen of Sicily.
reply by sissimania
Hi,
I Would like to know in which books the photo is told to be Queen Marie ?
I have two books who mentioned that it is Sissi. The first one is «Sissi l'impératrice anarchiste» by Catherine Clément. In page 77 the description is «Malgré l'organdi, les diadèmes, la grâce de l'impératrice a disparu....». On the page 171, she say that the picture is Élisabeth in 1861 from the coll. of Robert Lebeck. Brigite Hamann to in her «Sisis Familien album» say that the picture is Sissi on page 31.
I would appreciate to know in which books they said that the picture is Queen Marie. Like that I will be able to give the right thing in my writing on Sissi.
Can someone tell me if the picture 136 is really Sissi ? On the forum of Alexander Palace there some people who said that is Queen Marie.
Thank you very much !
reply by sissiwebnet
Hello sissimania,
yes I know that in C. Clément's book it is said that it represents Sissi. It is not the case, however. We have quite a few official portraits of Queen Marie always wearing the same blue and white ribbon which is something you never see on official portraits of Sissi*. I have added a picture of a painting of Marie that is, basically, a replica of the photograph.
www.sissiweb.net/gallery/441.jpg You can see she has the same ribbon, crown and jewels as in the photograph and we know this portrait to be of Queen Marie.
People make mistakes and it is not a photograph of Empress Sissi but of her sister Marie.
I have never heard that picture 136 was of Queen Marie. Judging from the style of the dress as well as the hair, it is a photograph taken around 1854-55 when Sissi was 17-18 years old. Marie would have been only 13 ou 14 years old at that time. Also, Sissi is wearing a ring on the ring finger. Why would Marie, who was married only in 1859, be wearing a ring?
Hope that helps.
* actually, a distintive piece of clothing Sissi would wear in her official portraits around 1854-1865 was a red skirt or cape.
reply by Diaantje
A lot of books make mistakes and not only with pictures. Also the book Sisis Familienalbum mentioned earlier. Hamman, who wrote the descriptions for the pictures, made more mistakes in that book. Mistaking Mathilde and Helene for instance.
But this might help, it's something that I noticed: Marie and Elisabeth look a lot like each other, but there are some differences. Marie has a more arrogant look, Elisabeth appearance is softer. Also is there a little difference in their eyes and mouth.
In the book from Gerda Mraz (Elisabeth. Wunschbilder oder die Kunst der Retouche), you can also find that picture. The picture is made by Franz Hanfstaengl in Munich. There are two versions of that picture, one from 1857 and one from 1859. Mraz believes that the picture is already taken before april 1854, because Elisabeth didn't visit Munich between april 1854 and july 1860. Mraz also mentioned that you can clearly see that the ring on her finger was added later.
Now that we are discussing pictures. Here's one that I'm not sure of if this picture is from Elisabeth:
I think this is Mathilde.
A picture from Mathilde for comparison:
What do you think?
reply by sissimania
I’m not sure. I think it can be Mathilde. Always thought Sissi was looking very different on this picture. Did Mathilde has a tiny waist ? To know it should help to identify her ? Definitively, it seems to have an incredible mixture in the photos. Give me a headache.
For the curiosity of everyone, I inviting you to visit the site of «Royal House of Bourbon Two Sicile» : www.italianmonarchy.org/uk/oggi/apr_2004.htm
And also the Il Portal del Sud
www.ilportaledelsud.org/francescoII_sto.htm
In this two sites You will find those pictures who are, according to them, showing the regina Maria Sofia. (
I think that maybe the Italian in 1859 confused a picture of Sissi with Maria Sofia ? ).
Thank you Diaantje for your informations on the picture 136. Very interresting !
I hope we Can buy the book from Gerda Mraz, Elisabeth. Wunschbilder oder die Kunst der Retouche on Amazon.
By the way, in the Brigitte Hamann’s book «Sissi», published by Taschen, at the p.78 there is a photo of Sissi’s ladies-in-the-waiting. (Sorry I’m not able to posted the image I don’t have anymore scanner but if some can it will be nice of you !) In some books they said that the lady with browns hair standing behind the pianist is Sissi. Can someone confirm me that ? I do not believe personally.
[ I hope the links and the pictures I put will appear. I'm really not good with technology. If not, my excuse !]
reply by Diaantje
sissimania wrote:
I’m not sure. I think it can be Mathilde. Always thought Sissi was looking very different on this picture. Did Mathilde has a tiny waist ? To know it should help to identify her ? Definitively, it seems to have an incredible mixture in the photos. Give me a headache.
She didn't look Elisabeth to me either. Elisabeth's hair is darker. En her facial features are a bit different. If I look in earlier pictures of Mathilde, she's not so thin, but she may have lost weigth as well. Al the sisters like to copy each other.
sissimania wrote:
For the curiosity of everyone, I inviting you to visit the site of «Royal House of Bourbon Two Sicile» : www.italianmonarchy.org/uk/oggi/apr_2004.htm
And also the Il Portal del Sud
www.ilportaledelsud.org/francescoII_sto.htm
In this two sites You will find those pictures who are, according to them, showing the regina Maria Sofia. ( I think that maybe the Italian in 1859 confused a picture of Sissi with Maria Sofia ? ).
As mentioned before, Marie and Elisabeth are easily mixed up. But the picture remains doubtfull.
sissimania wrote:
Thank you Diaantje for your informations on the picture 136. Very interresting !
I hope we Can buy the book from Gerda Mraz, Elisabeth. Wunschbilder oder die Kunst der Retouche on Amazon.
The book is not for sale anymore. It took me a long time to find this book. I finally found it on Ebay. You will hardly find it, and when you do find it, they are quite expensive.
sissimania wrote:
By the way, in the Brigitte Hamann’s book «Sissi», published by Taschen, at the p.78 there is a photo of Sissi’s ladies-in-the-waiting. (Sorry I’m not able to posted the image I don’t have anymore scanner but if some can it will be nice of you !) In some books they said that the lady with browns hair standing behind the pianist is Sissi. Can someone confirm me that ? I do not believe personally.
You are lucky, I have that book as well
I already have a scan on my computer. I uploaded it to my own server:
%20met%20haar%20hofdames.jpg)
That lady is definitely not Elisabeth. Elisabeth is the one sitting complety on the right, with the hat on her head and an umbrella in her hand.
sissimania wrote:
[ I hope the links and the pictures I put will appear. I'm really not good with technology. If not, my excuse !]
The pictures appeared
I hope that I helped you a bit
reply by Sofie
Hi,
speaking of picture, I also think that pic 136 is a photograph of Sissi taken around 1853-54 because her hairstyle is so very similar to all images of her at that time. It seems to me that her clothes, as well as the way she dressed her hair, in 1857-1859 was very different. Her hair was "dropping" more in her neck at the end of the 1850's. Also, the dress is much more beginning of the 1850's style. Notice how the bodice is sort of pointed in the front which is not the case around 1860 where the bodice sort of ends at the waist line and not below it. Is there a specialist in costume history???
I think that the first pic you posted Diaantje is of Sissi. In a book about Sissi, there are pictures of her rooms I think in the Kaiservilla and the photograph was on one of her desks.
reply by Lizzie
Hi!
wow, thanks for all your answers! I visited the site you mentioned sissimania, and on their page about Marie (http://www.ilportaledelsud.org/maria_sofia.htm) they have the same pic as 419 but in colors. So that confirms what you all said.
I still think that pic 136 is Sissi though. MArie has a proud look in her eyes that Sissi doesn't have in any of her pics.
reply by Guest
This is Mathilde. She was at least as thin as Elisabeth.
Hi!
In the gallery there is a picture (419) and it says it is of Queen Marie of Naples but I have seen in a book that it is Sissi. Is it a mistake??
reply by stu.
It's Queen Marie, I assure you. Books are written by men, men make mistakes.
reply by sissiwebnet
Hello Lizzie,
Yes, it really is a picture of Queen Marie Sophie. If you look closely, you see she has a large ribbon dropping from her shoulder. You can also see the same ribbon on picture 438 (which I just added to the Gallery), also a picture of Marie. The white and blue ribbon is something that we very often see in official paintings and photographs of Marie when she was Queen of Sicily.
reply by sissimania
Hi,
I Would like to know in which books the photo is told to be Queen Marie ?
I have two books who mentioned that it is Sissi. The first one is «Sissi l'impératrice anarchiste» by Catherine Clément. In page 77 the description is «Malgré l'organdi, les diadèmes, la grâce de l'impératrice a disparu....». On the page 171, she say that the picture is Élisabeth in 1861 from the coll. of Robert Lebeck. Brigite Hamann to in her «Sisis Familien album» say that the picture is Sissi on page 31.
I would appreciate to know in which books they said that the picture is Queen Marie. Like that I will be able to give the right thing in my writing on Sissi.
Can someone tell me if the picture 136 is really Sissi ? On the forum of Alexander Palace there some people who said that is Queen Marie.
Thank you very much !
reply by sissiwebnet
Hello sissimania,
yes I know that in C. Clément's book it is said that it represents Sissi. It is not the case, however. We have quite a few official portraits of Queen Marie always wearing the same blue and white ribbon which is something you never see on official portraits of Sissi*. I have added a picture of a painting of Marie that is, basically, a replica of the photograph.
www.sissiweb.net/gallery/441.jpg You can see she has the same ribbon, crown and jewels as in the photograph and we know this portrait to be of Queen Marie.
People make mistakes and it is not a photograph of Empress Sissi but of her sister Marie.
I have never heard that picture 136 was of Queen Marie. Judging from the style of the dress as well as the hair, it is a photograph taken around 1854-55 when Sissi was 17-18 years old. Marie would have been only 13 ou 14 years old at that time. Also, Sissi is wearing a ring on the ring finger. Why would Marie, who was married only in 1859, be wearing a ring?
Hope that helps.
* actually, a distintive piece of clothing Sissi would wear in her official portraits around 1854-1865 was a red skirt or cape.
reply by Diaantje
A lot of books make mistakes and not only with pictures. Also the book Sisis Familienalbum mentioned earlier. Hamman, who wrote the descriptions for the pictures, made more mistakes in that book. Mistaking Mathilde and Helene for instance.
But this might help, it's something that I noticed: Marie and Elisabeth look a lot like each other, but there are some differences. Marie has a more arrogant look, Elisabeth appearance is softer. Also is there a little difference in their eyes and mouth.
In the book from Gerda Mraz (Elisabeth. Wunschbilder oder die Kunst der Retouche), you can also find that picture. The picture is made by Franz Hanfstaengl in Munich. There are two versions of that picture, one from 1857 and one from 1859. Mraz believes that the picture is already taken before april 1854, because Elisabeth didn't visit Munich between april 1854 and july 1860. Mraz also mentioned that you can clearly see that the ring on her finger was added later.
Now that we are discussing pictures. Here's one that I'm not sure of if this picture is from Elisabeth:
I think this is Mathilde.
A picture from Mathilde for comparison:
What do you think?
reply by sissimania
I’m not sure. I think it can be Mathilde. Always thought Sissi was looking very different on this picture. Did Mathilde has a tiny waist ? To know it should help to identify her ? Definitively, it seems to have an incredible mixture in the photos. Give me a headache.
For the curiosity of everyone, I inviting you to visit the site of «Royal House of Bourbon Two Sicile» : www.italianmonarchy.org/uk/oggi/apr_2004.htm
And also the Il Portal del Sud
www.ilportaledelsud.org/francescoII_sto.htm
In this two sites You will find those pictures who are, according to them, showing the regina Maria Sofia. (
I think that maybe the Italian in 1859 confused a picture of Sissi with Maria Sofia ? ). Thank you Diaantje for your informations on the picture 136. Very interresting !
I hope we Can buy the book from Gerda Mraz, Elisabeth. Wunschbilder oder die Kunst der Retouche on Amazon.
By the way, in the Brigitte Hamann’s book «Sissi», published by Taschen, at the p.78 there is a photo of Sissi’s ladies-in-the-waiting. (Sorry I’m not able to posted the image I don’t have anymore scanner but if some can it will be nice of you !) In some books they said that the lady with browns hair standing behind the pianist is Sissi. Can someone confirm me that ? I do not believe personally.
[ I hope the links and the pictures I put will appear. I'm really not good with technology. If not, my excuse !]
reply by Diaantje
sissimania wrote:
I’m not sure. I think it can be Mathilde. Always thought Sissi was looking very different on this picture. Did Mathilde has a tiny waist ? To know it should help to identify her ? Definitively, it seems to have an incredible mixture in the photos. Give me a headache.
She didn't look Elisabeth to me either. Elisabeth's hair is darker. En her facial features are a bit different. If I look in earlier pictures of Mathilde, she's not so thin, but she may have lost weigth as well. Al the sisters like to copy each other.
sissimania wrote:
For the curiosity of everyone, I inviting you to visit the site of «Royal House of Bourbon Two Sicile» : www.italianmonarchy.org/uk/oggi/apr_2004.htm
And also the Il Portal del Sud
www.ilportaledelsud.org/francescoII_sto.htm
In this two sites You will find those pictures who are, according to them, showing the regina Maria Sofia. (
I think that maybe the Italian in 1859 confused a picture of Sissi with Maria Sofia ? ). As mentioned before, Marie and Elisabeth are easily mixed up. But the picture remains doubtfull.
sissimania wrote:
Thank you Diaantje for your informations on the picture 136. Very interresting !
I hope we Can buy the book from Gerda Mraz, Elisabeth. Wunschbilder oder die Kunst der Retouche on Amazon.
The book is not for sale anymore. It took me a long time to find this book. I finally found it on Ebay. You will hardly find it, and when you do find it, they are quite expensive.
sissimania wrote:
By the way, in the Brigitte Hamann’s book «Sissi», published by Taschen, at the p.78 there is a photo of Sissi’s ladies-in-the-waiting. (Sorry I’m not able to posted the image I don’t have anymore scanner but if some can it will be nice of you !) In some books they said that the lady with browns hair standing behind the pianist is Sissi. Can someone confirm me that ? I do not believe personally.
You are lucky, I have that book as well
I already have a scan on my computer. I uploaded it to my own server:
That lady is definitely not Elisabeth. Elisabeth is the one sitting complety on the right, with the hat on her head and an umbrella in her hand.
sissimania wrote:
[ I hope the links and the pictures I put will appear. I'm really not good with technology. If not, my excuse !]
The pictures appeared
I hope that I helped you a bit
reply by Sofie
Hi,
speaking of picture, I also think that pic 136 is a photograph of Sissi taken around 1853-54 because her hairstyle is so very similar to all images of her at that time. It seems to me that her clothes, as well as the way she dressed her hair, in 1857-1859 was very different. Her hair was "dropping" more in her neck at the end of the 1850's. Also, the dress is much more beginning of the 1850's style. Notice how the bodice is sort of pointed in the front which is not the case around 1860 where the bodice sort of ends at the waist line and not below it. Is there a specialist in costume history???
I think that the first pic you posted Diaantje is of Sissi. In a book about Sissi, there are pictures of her rooms I think in the Kaiservilla and the photograph was on one of her desks.
reply by Lizzie
Hi!
wow, thanks for all your answers! I visited the site you mentioned sissimania, and on their page about Marie (http://www.ilportaledelsud.org/maria_sofia.htm) they have the same pic as 419 but in colors. So that confirms what you all said.
I still think that pic 136 is Sissi though. MArie has a proud look in her eyes that Sissi doesn't have in any of her pics.
reply by Guest
This is Mathilde. She was at least as thin as Elisabeth.
